"Women are Property" Part I: Women Respond

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     Coming right on the tail of my Israelite Marriage series, I was sent a link to an internet radio show put on by two Israelite women. I'm in the habit of reading/watching/listening to Israelite things that come my way, so I gave it a listen. For the first ten minutes, I was a little lost. I wasn't sure what the topic was, and "Is this what I think it is?" floated through my head more than a few times. By thirty minutes in, I was so mad, I was shaking.

     If you have two hours to devote to something, feel free to give it a listen: Sister2Sister.

     I've been questioned as to why I write my blog the way I do--why I focus on these issues. My answer before hearing this radio show was, "I want to do my part to prevent Israelitism from going down a bad road. I want to explore topics that are commonly looked over but very important nonetheless. I want to write on behalf of women to make sure they, and the men in their lives, are informed against any misguided person who might try to sway them. I want to keep focus where it should be kept--not on clothes or needless ritual, but on doing the right thing." Now, my answer this, "That radio show. That's why."

"Women are Property"
     If you don't have the time to listen, allow me to sum up the points for you. Using the (disasterous) marriage of Jacob to Rachel, Leah, Bilhah and Zilpah, the women of Sister2Sister argue the following: (I wish I could say I was exaggerating these, but I'm not. Not one bit.)

1. God's plan for marriage is polygamy. Only polygamy.
• Monogamous men are probably possibly gay, and if they're not, "they're on their way to becoming gay."
• Monogamous women are selfish, insecure, and probably possessed by "spirits"
2. Women are property
• They do not count as people, and that is a good thing.
• We should raise daughters to believe they are property, and we should raise our sons to treat women like property.
• Marriage is like a sort of prostitution. A woman gives sex and receives in exchange a place to live, "protection", and food. Oh, and children. She cannot expect any other attention, esteem, care, or love, and she should not.
3. Women cannot understand men, and therefore cannot judge their actions, good or bad.
• Even if these actions include deceit, lying, and mistreatment of others.
• Because women cannot understand men, who, naturally, are in charge, women cannot contradict a man about anything because he's probably right.

     Now, this may sound like some crazy cult from some other country, but it is not. These words come from a group of people living in America. I have met some of them. The leader of this group and his wife have visited my family home; they were visiting when I moved to college one year. They are a relatively prominent Israelite group, calling themselves "Hebrew Israelites". They have a community for strong members, a YouTube presence, followers around the country, yearly events, and this radio show, among other things.

Ya' know, 'Property'. (Source)

Some choice quotes:

• “...If you’re new tonight, welcome to the only way that will make[sic] you into the Kingdom. To the truth.”
• “How is it we can adjust to this truth….and you can’t?”
• “We should call our husband “Master””
• “Whether you like it or not, sisters, you are your husband’s property.”
• “We gotta bring this out and really spend some time thinking on it, sisters, so that you understand that there is security in being a property. Alright, because rejection can minister to you, even subconsciously, keeping you bound, not understanding that property has value. Okay? It will make you feel like that’s a term that is unworthy. That’s a term that’s worthless, unvaluable[sic]. Insecurity breeds envy and jealousy.”
• “We’re building, sisters. We’re building on you. We’re building on you being a property….it’s an honorable thing.”
• “If you were least favored, among your husband--worse case scenario--and there were fifteen of you, you were least favored, and he loved them all more than you, and you’re protected, and you’re provided for, your obligations were fulfilled, you were honored, because, by Torah, he is bound to do to you what he does to the others...so I hope that breaks a lot of fear down…”
• “We have to be set free so we can love”
• “That’s what some of ya’ll need; you need to be broke down.”
• “A woman is not meant to be jealous; our roles are reversed”
• “Your husband is not your property. We need to be content…”
• “We are here for our men; they are not here for us.”

How are these different? The exploitation of women is never defensible (Source)

     Let that sink in. For me, this was horrifying. Some of my worst imaginings come true. I could see headlines from 10 years in the future, "Israelites, the New FLDS?" "Israelites: Polygamist Cult?" It was no longer a distant, possible future; it was a concrete reality. 

     I wanted to write a different post than this one. I wanted to refute every point they made, but I realized, I already have. So I decided to do something different; instead, I would interview a variety of people about this radio show. Women and men. Israelite and non-Israelite. Religious and non-religious. For those of you non-Israelites who might be curious about the religion, I want to show you that Israelites are not woman-oppressing, sexist, ignorant throwbacks. For Israelites, I want to open your eyes to some of the problems existing among us. We have chancres, and we should fight against them, not ignore, tolerate, or gloss over them.

Let's Ignore....

     Since the goal of this post is to show the diversity in the Israelite faith and the reactions of individuals, we're going to ignore many scriptural things. Let's ignore the following:

1. Polygamy is outlawed in the Bible, both by the words of Yeshua and the properly-translated Leviticus 18:18. 
2. Jacob married four pagans (Gen 31:34), so his marriages cannot be a model for Israelites to follow.
3. As shown by Deborah and Jael, the ideal woman of Proverbs 31, Eve, Zipporah, the daughters of Zelophehad, and many other females in the Bible, women are more than just their vaginas and their uteri. They have autonomy, responsibility, and freedom to live their lives how they will.
4. Men are commanded to love their wives as they love themselves (Eph 5:28).
•  it is written in the Law that the happiness of new wives takes precedence over war.
5. It is not lawful to "give" or "sell" a woman in marriage. Only a woman can make the choice to marry someone. The only role anyone else has is her father, and his only power is veto. 

Meet the Interviewees

All the interviewees were given pseudonyms to protect their privacy.

Dahlia*: Dahlia is a strong Israelite who moved to a different state with her husband to have an easier time fellowshipping with fellow Israelites. A college-graduate, she now works as a stay-at-home mom, looking after her young son, gardening, and crafting.
Daisy: Daisy comes from an Israelite family. She works at a crisis pregnancy center and also volunteers her time for a more hands-on approach.
Magnolia: Magnolia is an agnostic college graduate. She lives and works in her hometown and spends her time gardening, cooking, and exercising with her fiance.
Orchid: Orchid is an unmarried Israelite college student studying in the Humanities. She's been an Israelite since she was a teenager.
Plumeria: Plumeria is a Christian and has been her whole life. She is also a college student, studying psychology and human sexuality.
Wisteria**: Wisteria is a young Israelite woman from an Israelite family with an interest in midwifery and natural remedies. She lives with her husband and young son.

[* Dahlia listened to the whole radio show, but felt her attention to the show was not focused enough to answer some of the questions.
**Wisteria was able to listen to the show until about the halfway point, so she has also left some questions unanswered.]

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[For the purpose of this post, the  interviews have been trimmed down, but I will post the full transcript of each interview separately to show the full story.]

The Interview
How do you identify yourself, religiously?
Dahlia: I identify myself as an Israelite, a follower of YHWH and believer of Yeshua (Jesus).
Daisy: Hm... I hate labels but I usually identify as Torah Observant. I am not closed off to the terms “Israelite”, “Hebrew” or “Hebrew Roots”.
Magnolia: I was raised in a Born Again Christian Church. I believe in a higher power, but I do not believe in religion. Religion has torn the world apart. I believe in love, forgiveness and understanding.
Orchid: A Jew-ish Christian. Torah keeping.
Plumeria: I would identify myself as a nondenominational Christian.
Wisteria: Torah-pursuant.

What is your relationship status?
Dahlia: I have been married to my husband for eight years.
Daisy: Single and looking, haha.
Magnolia: Engaged to a man who I have been dating for three years and lived/cohabitated with for two and half years.
Orchid: Committed dating.
Plumeria: In a relationship, going on three years this August...well... I guess in a few days now.
Wisteria: Married for two years.

What, if any, questions do you have before we commence the interview?
Magnolia: None.
Orchid: What benefits exist for polygyny? (this is a rhetorical question).
Plumeria: I don't think I have any.

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What is your general reaction to what you listened to?
Dahlia: I would have to say that I was mostly confused (not from lack of knowledge but from never hearing this stance before) listening to this podcast.
Daisy: I felt frustrated because each time one of the sisters misquoted the Bible or used faulty logic, I couldn't talk to anyone about it because I was the only person (In my group of family and friends) who was listening to it.
Magnolia: Shock, complete and utter shock.
Orchid: “Gives you a blinding headache and makes you angry. I can’t imagine what a second sip might do.”
Plumeria: It pains me to hear women living their lives so passionately based on something that is false.
Wisteria: From what I've listened to so far, there have been some things I've agreed with, but even the things I agree with are said in a way I don't agree with.

Do you believe women are unable to understand men, and therefore unable to judge their actions?

Dahlia: I do not believe that women are unable to understand men. I do believe that we should not judge men, or any person for that matter, but it is not from a lack of understanding.

Daisy: No-ish. I don't pretend to understand anyone well enough to judge their actions. But I do speculate.
Magnolia: No, women can understand men, and yes, we can judge them for their actions. Also vice versa.

Orchid: I understand many men. Men are not infallible. Neither are women. I absolutely can judge a man’s actions. Is a believing male child molester not to be judged? Give me a break.

Plumeria: The ability to judge someone else's actions and understand the reasons they acted in that way is not hindered by gender (or sex depending on what you believe I suppose) but by your own ability to "put yourself in someone else's shoes", feel empathy, and sympathy.

Wisteria: I think that there are certain situations where both of those statements are true, but God made us different, so that, in a marriage, both people can have the perspective of each other. I think a woman should talk to her husband if he's going against Torah, and he should do the same for her.

React to the statement, “women are a possession”.
Dahlia: [From] Genesis 2:18, My opinion is that a woman is not there to be possessed but to help.

Daisy: “Say whaaat?” That's really what I thought right off the bat. I have not observed that idea to be a Biblical one.
Magnolia: Nope! Women are not possessions. I believe no woman nor man should be a possession of the other. In a relationship they should be as a team: not one above the other, but side by side together.

Orchid: People are not possessions. We fought a civil war to assert that black people aren’t a possession….should we have maintained black women are possessions?

Plumeria: It was infuriating. Women are human beings.

Wisteria:I think, in the term of “possession”, they (women) are something to be protected and cherished, but they are not something to be trodden upon. I do not agree with their definition of “possession”.

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How do sex slaves, like Bilhah and Zilpah, prevent “the lust of the world”?

Daisy: I don't think that they do...

Orchid: They don't.

Plumeria: Let the men get it out with women that are not honorable so they can come to the table of marriage holy? So, basically, the answer to how does it keep lust out of the world is: it doesn't. This is why it's good and encouraged to have romantic love in a marriage now, because then you don't take your lusting elsewhere.

How do you define “love”?

Dahlia: I define love as a respect for one another. I respect my son and he respects me, we love one another. I respect my husband and he respects me, we love one another. I respect my pastor and his wife and they respect me, we love one another.

Daisy: The first thing I thought of was 1 John 4:10. I'll need to think about this more. [NIV: “This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.”] Also 1 Corinthians 13. 
Magnolia: A spiritual emotion that affects the body both physiologically and psychologically.

Orchid: A mutual respect and understanding for one another, with the affectionate feelings caused by brain chemistry.

Plumeria: Love takes many forms, in my opinion, and each is varying in strength. However, I believe that a strong marriage takes all of them. 

Wisteria: Marriage love is where you respect the other's person's opinions, wants and needs, and you take those things into consideration in your own life.

Does love create crippling, unmanly weakness in men?

Dahlia: This was something that I was confused about during this podcast. I do not believe that my husband has a crippling, unmanly weakness because he loves me. Does YHWH love the people of Israel?
Daisy: Does love create crippling, unmanly weakness in God?
Magnolia: Not in my experience. My own man has professed many times, I bring out the best in him and I strengthen him both emotionally and physically. If someone finds love crippling, they’re doing it wrong. Or the poor person has no clue, idea, or understanding of what love means.

Orchid: Nope. Love inspires men to be strong instead of lonely and cruel.

Plumeria: No, BECAUSE love is a human emotion that you should feel as a mentally sound and functioning human. It is actually more crippling to expect a man to be emotionless. Statistically, this leads to mass shootings, suicide, depression, the raping of women and other men, etc.

Wisteria: Haha. No. It makes them stronger because they have a wife to care for. Loving someone means you aren’t dwelling on yourself as much; you are taking care of someone else. Their perspective is not focused on only themselves.


React “the American woman is the enemy of a man”.

Dahlia:  I do believe that this statement is too broad of one to make. As not all “American” women are the same.
Daisy:  I guess, before I can have a reaction to that statement I would need a lot of clarification on just what is meant by “American woman” and “man”.
Magnolia: This statement is infuriating. We, as women, have the potential to do great things in this world. American women are not privileged; we have fought for our rights and our standing in today's world.

Orchid: Pretty sure Satan is the enemy of man….yep, that’s Satan. Not women. Sidenote: Satan is male.

Plumeria: A woman who has autonomy and understands she is a person, equal to man is not the enemy of man. If anything she is his ally, because a woman who fights for equality is a woman who understands and is able to to take on 50% of the burden that is living. An "American" woman as they have described would be, to me, a woman who supports men learning to be openly emotional beings instead of emotionally stunted. The fight of the American woman is not to place men below us but to balance one another out on an equal field, giving women more, and requiring men to do less.

Wisteria: What kind of American woman? There are so many kinds.

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From this podcast, what is a “Biblical” marriage?

Dahlia: I felt that this podcast defined Biblical marriage as one where the man is in possession of his wife.
Daisy: I got the impression that a their idea of a Biblical marriage (and I may be wrong) is a marriage in which the man maintains complete control over every aspect of the relationship. The marriage relationship chain of command is like this: ‘Pastor’ → Husband → Wife. The Husband must fully submit his mind, will and emotions to Pastor’s teaching. The wife must fully obey and submit to both as she would God. Any pull back or critical thinking skills are angrily dismissed as a rebellious, Western mindset.
Magnolia: Man to woman or man to multiple wives i.e. Polygamy.

Orchid: A marriage of any woman to a working man, for the purpose of children and the woman’s salvation.
Plumeria: A "Biblical" marriage is one where the woman has little say in the matter; it is mostly a man's choice (and also the choice of the woman's family), in marriage she becomes a possession. This is a state she should be proud of because it is honorable to belong to someone unlike those harlots, who don't. It is good to be a possession through marriage because you are secure, even if you aren't your husbands favorite, you should be thankful.

From this podcast, what makes a man? What makes a woman?

Daisy: Man is divided up into two separate groups: ‘Pastor’ and everyone else. Pastor tells everyone else what to believe and they follow (because, after all, that’s what sheep are supposed to do). Women are beings of a lower rank. Men can require unquestioned obedience. “Servant Leadership” and self-sacrifice on the man’s part seems to be a foreign concept (perhaps a ‘Western’ one?). Women cannot question men because they are not men and cannot be expected to understand anything about them. This is only what I gather from listening to this one podcast. I have no doubt that I am missing and misunderstanding a lot of their beliefs. Goodness, I hope I don’t hurt anyone’s feelings.
Magnolia: A man’s value is measured by his possessions, his land, wife “wives” and seed “children”. A woman’s value is measured by her womb, by her potential to bare seed “children”.
Orchid: A man has a penis and is a person. A woman has a vagina and is not a person.

Plumeria: From the podcast: a man is made through worshiping the lord, being a leader, maintaining order, and working hard so you can maintain your position as a man and stay out of the house. Similarly a woman is a vessel to create a family for the man. Prior to marriage, her focus should be the Lord. After marriage her focus should be pleasing her husband who is now her possessor, and worshiping in the Lord that he has granted her security, and honor in their union.

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What, in your opinion, makes a good marriage?

Dahlia:  I believe that a good marriage is one where there is respect for both people. Men and women are not created to be equals but are valuable in making a marriage work. 

Daisy:  “What makes a good marriage? I don’t know, let’s ask Pastor.”
Magnolia: Above all, communication between spouses, expressing love verbally, emotionally and sexually is the most crucial communication in a marriage. Also [in] discussion and conflict, spouses should strive to challenge one another in all aspects of life. A sense of humor--both spouses should have a sense of humor.

Orchid: Mutual goals, understanding, and respect...a solid foundation.

Plumeria: A good marriage is two individuals both deciding that they are romantically in love, good companions, and that they would like to spend the rest of their life with that other person. To have a good marriage you need to have people who go together well. In the end the most important thing is a good marriage is one between two people who better each other, but love their partner for the individual they are; they are partners, not master and servant.

Wisteria: Mutual agreement based on the same faith and a mutual desire to help each other grow.

(If married) how does your marriage work?

Dahlia: My husband and I have a mutual respect for one another. We both have roles that are more “gender specific” in that my husband works to provide for our family financially, where I work on keeping the household up. This includes me educating our child (and future children) as well as maintain a comfortable home for my husband and family to enjoy. We work together as one could not do without the other. I am able to stay home from work because my husband provides and I am able to make sure that what my husband provides supports and maintains our household by not living outside of our means.
Daisy: Not married… yet. Someday! :) Hopefully sooner, rather than later. I will only marry a man who loves me, and that includes my brains and reasoning skills, as feeble as they are.

Orchid: I’m not married. My relationship works through honest and open communication about issues of conflict,either personal or as a couple.
Wisteria: In our marriage, my husband is the head of our household and the family-spokesman to the outside world, but we make decisions together, and we discuss decisions that need to be made together. Sometimes, we discuss our different opinions until we find one we can both agree with.

 

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How do you think this makes Israelites appear to non-Israelites?/ How does this make you feel about this religious sect?

Dahlia: As I stated in question 10, to pass judgement on an entire group based on one person’s/group’s beliefs is a judgement I don’t believe we should pass. That being said, I can see how many people could be turned away from a religious sect based on the podcast heard tonight. 

Daisy: This probably makes Israelites seem like a group of people who all follow the *crazy* ideas of one man… which if funny, because that’s what we’re supposed to do! Except, in this podcast, they’ve replaced Yeshua with ‘Pastor’. Yeshua and Pastor are two very different people. They probably have some similarities, but I share 50% of my DNA with a banana.
This podcast makes me feel like I would have to abandon my critical thinking skills in order to join this sect. I can see how the idea of Community would be appealing to people, especially when they are feeling isolated but I don’t think Straitway is the only way (or the correct way) to solve that longing to belong.
Magnolia: Well, they’re extremists. I fear for the poor souls influenced by this very biased and extreme interpretation of the Bible. Religion isn’t all bad, but this form is the most dangerous. I find it alarming and scary. I fear for their “seed”.

Orchid:  Insane, backwards, inane, dangerous, cult-like, brainwashed. It makes me very upset, and I fear for the women who believe this.

Plumeria: Well, it makes me feel like they are a strange cult. I worry for the safety of these women, and I feel disdain for the boxes they are putting themselves inside.

Wisteria: It makes it seem that the Bible says to demean women and walk all over them. It makes it seem we think all men should have multiple wives. They make it seem that women don’t have any say in anything, and, I know some people think that men and women are equal, and I agree in some ways, but everyone has different responsibilities and jobs, and so, you can’t compare the two, in my opinion.

To Plumeria, with your background in Psychology, what, do you think, is responsible for this type of thinking?

Plumeria: I think it stems from the deep desire to please the power you believe in. Also, in the cases of these women, they present that they had "dealt with emotions before" leading me to believe that they had been "spurred" and were grasping at a way to deal with that. Faith is an easy way for people to legitimize their choices. Their constant referral to the Pastor also leads me to believe that he has in some way shown them he can create a better environment for them and so they blindly follow his teachings.In short people are always looking for ways to deal with their emotions, justify them, or get rid of them and when presented with an option you are likely to cling to it if it solves your problem. This is because lots of emotions are unpleasant. I think to follow along you need to be relatively malleable. You need to be open to it for whatever reason, and with these women I think they like the easiness of it all..."if we are a possession then we are secure and we don't have to feel lots of bad emotions, we don't have to make tough calls..." etc.

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Any closing thoughts/comments?

Dahlia:  A few of thoughts that I had during the podcast were as follows: If there should be no romance, why then would an entire book of the Bible be devoted to the subject (i.e. Songs of Solomon)? Also, in Genesis 2:24 it states that two (man and woman) become one. If you are a part of that man, how then would you become his property/possession? Lastly, if wives are property and are being compared to slaves, which was stated in the podcast, do wives then have an opportunity to leave their husbands on the seventh year of marriage as long as they have not awled their ears as stated in the Torah? These are some questions/thoughts that I will also discuss further with my husband.

Daisy: I apologize if I am misunderstanding any of the beliefs held by Straitway members, but I was asked blunt questions and I gave answers to the best of my ability.
Magnolia: What the actual f**k! These poor women live in America and truly believe that American women are a threat to all men. Where, how, who taught you this? I have so many questions. Also, the conviction in their voices is f*****g terrifying. They believe they are possessions of their men. That is not okay. No one should ever be anyone’s possession or property. Also, their only goal in life is to bare seed, and, if they fail to do so, they are failures to their husbands. Okay, what about just companionship, conversation and love? Oh, wait, passionate love is a sin. WHAT THE HELL, PEOPLE!! I can’t even begin to understand these poor ladies. I wish I could because I believe in understanding, but they are radicals, and logic seems lost on them.

Orchid: Yes. Judaism and “Israelitism” are Western religions. Buddhism, Confucianism, Hinduism are Eastern religions. Geographically, the mother cultures of Israel, etc, are Phoenician, Sumerian, and Mesopotamian. They are the same mother cultures of Western societies. To say that women need to be “Eastern” is to say women need to think the Indians, Chinese, Japanese, Thai, Russian, etc. Israelitism is purely Western. Israelites are a mother culture of Christian culture, hence, American culture. Also, saying “American culture is like x, x, or x” is to erase the culture of so many Americans. It’s a scare tactic and a logical fallacy. Mainstream media? Sure. The capitalist political system? Sure. The American people? No. “American women” are not hurting men at all. Read that again. At ALL. I want to emphasize again that EASTERN MINDSETS AND EASTERN CULTURES DO NOT INCLUDE ISRAEL. Also, that charismatic leaders are not infallible….are women really made to create children? Is that how we gain salvation? What?

Plumeria: It makes me sad to think people believe these kinds of things. Its so extreme and it's so limiting! These women are resigning themselves to be possessions and follow the men leading their lives, when they may be able to come up with some pretty cool, unique, intelligent thoughts that could do something pretty great.

Wisteria: It seems like what they’re saying is that women cannot have thoughts for themselves, and that women cannot express those thoughts to their husbands. I disagree with that belief.
Raising your children in this way [the podcast], the mother would be oppressed by her children, especially her sons, because they would raise the children to believe that the mother is the bottom of the family, but, really, the children should have respect for their mother.

What's Next?
Within the week, I plan to have "Part II: Men Respond" posted. In the next few days, I will publish the full transcript of each interviewee with full commentary. In the meantime, if you have the time, feel free to leave your own reaction in the comments. (Please keep the language clean, or I will block your comment!) Thanks for reading!
Full Transcripts: Orchid, Daisy, Plumeria, Magnolia, Dahlia, Wisteria